As a boomer, growing up nobody older ever talked about marriage or children at all, either positively or negatively. My impression from my (excellent and caring!) family was the most important thing was to become financially self-supporting. The most useful thing would've been even talking about marrying and starting a family - like just saying this is the next big thing, the next step in your life. Saying this is the most joyful rewarding thing in life might've been helpful too. We were left to drift, mostly. I think they thought it was so obvious it didn't need saying.
I don't necessarily think "getting it out of your system" is wrong for all guys. Even the examples you used of the barstoolers KFC and Prez were both married young, did not "get it out of their system" and their marriages failed and are now 40/50!? still living a degenerate lifestyle.
In my personal life a lot (maybe most?) guys I know did the work a lot, do a lot of self care, make a lot of money, hookup with a lot of girls, drink and party a lot. Then at some point in their early 30s maybe mid 30s they woke up, "got serious with life" and are now happily married with children as they approach and pass 40.
Really the couple left single (one never married, one married young and divorced) still texting about their sexual conquests and partying in exotic locations are considered pathetic by the larger group. Being a barstool degenerate at 40 is not cool, even, dorky. Being the involved, stalwart trad-dad is the cool thing.
Obviously this is not for all guys. Examples abound but here are a quick two:
-My brother, for instance, was been boyfriend/girlfriend with his wife since they were in middle school.
-Of the 10guys in the house I lived in in college six started dating their wives in college and all are still married with children.
I think this is a preferable option but many, myself included, did need the time to mature and grow up. I am not nearly as temperamentally conservative as my brother.
The two big things about living the barstool lifestyle in your 20s and growing up and settling down in your 30s:
1. You need to be able to "absorb the blows" financially, professionally, and personally. Financially, as Johann mentions it is not a cheap lifestyle; make sure you can afford this without going into debt or getting in over your head. Professionally, you cannot let staying out late (sometimes on work nights) hold you back from performing at your job; ultimately your future earnings (career) will pay for your family. Personally, some people get addicted to sex, drugs, alcohol, the lifestyle, etc; make sure that is not you.
2. When you reach I don't know 31? 33? Whatever, it doesn't really matter, know the game is over, the bar is closed. Now it is time to "be serous" and find a wife. Time to start a family and get married.
Alcohol should be banned globally - period. It is the singleworst addictive drug on the market and nothing but disease, abuse, misery and death stem from it. Barstool life is lame at any age. There are million better ways to "meet people and get laid". "Getting it out of your system" is not bad in theory but in practice? STDs. STDs. STDs.
Would Western folks in Europe, North America and elsewhere accept help in the marriage department or are they too proud and obsessed with personal autonomy?
Do let me know when you have set up a social re-education campaign to get autonomy-loving Westerners to positively embrace the duties and social obligations of marriage.
Most folks today think marriage is a prize for high-status social winners. Marriage as a capstone is the norm even on the right 😐
"Do let me know when you have set up a social re-education campaign to get autonomy-loving Westerners to positively embrace the duties and social obligations of marriage."
--- The duties and social obligations of marriages that have been arranged are doubly, triply, unlimitedly even moreso cumbersome.
The sort of cultures that give rise to the type of families that arrange marriages is something you can't imagine. And when you do imagine it - it's a rose-colored fantasy seen through the eyes of a westerner who romanticizes and exoticizes "the orient".
Leave well enough alone and trust me - you do not want that culture.
The arranged marriage cultures I am familiar with are multi-generational, patrilineal, patrilocal, "joint-family" cultures. That means sons never move out of their parents' home and the bride comes to live there in her in-laws home. So under one roof you can have up to 4 generations living. Paternal great-grandparents, paternal grand-parents, parents and kids. No privacy, no autonomy, no independent decision making on anything. Grown, working adults, whether married or single, turn over their salaries to the elders in the family and those elders decide how to disperse the incomes. If wives have issues with parents-in-law or brothers/sisters-in-law, the husband/son/brother gets caught in between and cannot take sides otherwise huge family war ensues so he has to cleverly play both sides or curl up in a ball under the covers and weep while ignoring everyone, which will also turn into huge family drama.
Arranged marriages are products of certain family structures (such as joint-families, NOT nuclear families), and certain cultures and societal structures. None of which are found in North America or Europe unless brought over by immigrants.
If you are still around I want to share with you a look into the family dynamics of the most arranged marriage country on Earth right now:
From an advice forum:
I (43 f) live with my husband (45m) in a joint family set up. We live with our kids A (16) and N(10). We also live with my BIL and his son (10) and my MIL. BIL’s wife passed away during child birth. Last week my MIL came up to me one morning and told me that she had woken up to get water when she walked by my bedroom and said she heard my husband and I having sex! She said that it was inappropriate for me to be engaging in these kind of things as a woman of my age and that I should focus on being a mother. I was mortified so I quickly agreed to not have sex. Two days later she came back to me and said that she heard us again so now she wants me to sleep in her room. She says that it is how it should be as she and my FIL also slept in separate rooms until his passing. I thought she was joking but she came back at night and asked me to come to her room. It was 1 am and she was starting to yell so I agreed to go despite my husband protesting.
The next morning I was in the kitchen when my husband came in. We were both annoyed when my BIL walked in. He asked why I was sleeping in his mother’s room as BIL had walked in that morning when he came to give her meds. I was a little hesitant but my husband told him we were engaging in marital relations (but tried telling it to him through subtle hints)My BIL was a bit confused and wanted clarification when my MIL walked in. My BIL asked her and she said that it was because we were being dirty. I was angry and told her it was normal when she started going off about how we were immature and she ended up calling me a whore (in our language). I was furious and before I could say anything my husband stepped in and started telling his mother to calm down. But this is when his brother stepped in and he agreed that a woman like me who is a mother should not be lusting over a sband lost it and went off and told him that he was just being crazy. BIL tried saying that his wife and him never did things like this and the only reason they ever did it was to have a child. He said that if she were alive they would also keep their distance. This is when my husband snapped and told him that he was the reason his wife died.
Now a little context is that my BILs wife was pregnant 4 times before having their son but at all those times BIL made her abort until she had the son. But due to this she was too weak and passed away. BIL was extremely hurt and left the room. My MIL said that it was all my fault and she told my husband that he was a shameless man and a bad father. My husband and I are thinking of moving out. We aren’t sure how to tell our kids this. My BILs wife’s parents called us as BIL moved there and they’re saying we are the AHs for being vulgar and it was not okay for us to be doing this. They think that we are the AHs for snapping at my BIL and accusing him of those things. They also say we’re the AHs for not listening to MIL. My parents and brother think that it is healthy for us and they are saying that MIL and BIL are the AHs for interfering in our marriage. So AITAH?
Edit: I am from India so it is very normal for us to live in joint families. My husband and I did think of moving out when my daughter was born but after my BILs wife passed my MIL wanted help with my nephew. I love him as my son so I was fine with living there. He gets along great with our kids as well.
Edit 2: I understand that it might be hard for people who are not understand and believe it but my fellow Indians will understand. For those of you saying we should suggest trying for a baby, that would not work as my MIL knows I hit menopause early so I can’t get pregnant any more.
Orthodox (~20% of) Jews use matchmakers “shadchans” for set ups. This however requires tight knit communities. Most of the time (from my knowledge as I have plenty of connections in the orthodox world but am not and did not grow up orthodox), people will find their spouse on their own but those who don’t by certain ages (depending on religious level and the community) will then go to a shadchan if they are not soon to be married.
Of course this requires close knit communities. Often times the shadchan will set one up with someone local-ish like brooklyn to rockland county ny where they didnt necessarily grow up with or next to said person (but not always).
As someone deeply familiar with arranged marriages (don't ask), the culture, social structure and family dynamics required for such are impossible for Europe and North America. Westerners also tend to romanticise and exotify "the east" or foreign cultures so they have this tendency to idealize things like arranged marriage and view it through rose colored glasses.
I don’t think Westerners idealize arranged marriages. I bet most would think marriage should NEVER be arranged, which is why Westerners do little to practically set singles up.
I agree that most westerners do not idealize them. But there are some who do. And even some ones that don't still wonder how it is arranged marriages "last longer" than love marriages. They assume there is some special sauce in the mix that allows for deeper bonds or something. They know little to nothing about the cultures these marriages are arranged in so they take innocent, romanticized guesses.
South Asian countries (the Indian sub-continent, which includes several countries and the island nation of Sri Lanka). But the patrilocal joint family household is found in other regions of the world as well. But it is South Asia where it is found in an overwhelming abundance.
Divorce is low in countries where it is still a social taboo. The marriages could be loveless, unhappy, abusive, sadistic, murderous, you name it, but as long as they don't divorce, society smiles favorably upon them.
I know nothing about the intricacies of South Asian marriages but the diaspora folks look like they are thriving. South Asians groups have the highest marriage rates in the USA.
Another thought my wife had recently was noticing that homeschool families in our circles had closer sibling relationships than public/private school families. In the right context this could build positive, nurturing familial ties
You are right that there are many examples of siblings in large families that did not enjoy their childhood (usually due to being neglected as youngest) and purposefully have fewer kids. I have seen both in my extended family.
Something I am trying to be thoughtful about cultivating is making my older siblings collaborators in raising our youngest who will be 8 years younger than oldest. The goal is to build leadership and agency in the olders and a closer relationship with the younger that doesn’t feel like a chore
As someone deeply familiar with arranged marriage and the culture required for it - NO WE DON'T WANT IT!
Yuri says, "especially in the cities people are living very atomized lives". It's actually in the suburbs, rural and semi-rural areas of the USA where people are living the most atomized lives. Big cities have a lot of personal, face to face interaction going on. For community buidling, cities are the place to be.
Also, he's obviously never watched SATC (Sex and the City) if he thinks it never showed the downsides of the single life in NYC.
As a boomer, growing up nobody older ever talked about marriage or children at all, either positively or negatively. My impression from my (excellent and caring!) family was the most important thing was to become financially self-supporting. The most useful thing would've been even talking about marrying and starting a family - like just saying this is the next big thing, the next step in your life. Saying this is the most joyful rewarding thing in life might've been helpful too. We were left to drift, mostly. I think they thought it was so obvious it didn't need saying.
Awesome episode.
I don't necessarily think "getting it out of your system" is wrong for all guys. Even the examples you used of the barstoolers KFC and Prez were both married young, did not "get it out of their system" and their marriages failed and are now 40/50!? still living a degenerate lifestyle.
In my personal life a lot (maybe most?) guys I know did the work a lot, do a lot of self care, make a lot of money, hookup with a lot of girls, drink and party a lot. Then at some point in their early 30s maybe mid 30s they woke up, "got serious with life" and are now happily married with children as they approach and pass 40.
Really the couple left single (one never married, one married young and divorced) still texting about their sexual conquests and partying in exotic locations are considered pathetic by the larger group. Being a barstool degenerate at 40 is not cool, even, dorky. Being the involved, stalwart trad-dad is the cool thing.
Obviously this is not for all guys. Examples abound but here are a quick two:
-My brother, for instance, was been boyfriend/girlfriend with his wife since they were in middle school.
-Of the 10guys in the house I lived in in college six started dating their wives in college and all are still married with children.
I think this is a preferable option but many, myself included, did need the time to mature and grow up. I am not nearly as temperamentally conservative as my brother.
The two big things about living the barstool lifestyle in your 20s and growing up and settling down in your 30s:
1. You need to be able to "absorb the blows" financially, professionally, and personally. Financially, as Johann mentions it is not a cheap lifestyle; make sure you can afford this without going into debt or getting in over your head. Professionally, you cannot let staying out late (sometimes on work nights) hold you back from performing at your job; ultimately your future earnings (career) will pay for your family. Personally, some people get addicted to sex, drugs, alcohol, the lifestyle, etc; make sure that is not you.
2. When you reach I don't know 31? 33? Whatever, it doesn't really matter, know the game is over, the bar is closed. Now it is time to "be serous" and find a wife. Time to start a family and get married.
Alcohol should be banned globally - period. It is the singleworst addictive drug on the market and nothing but disease, abuse, misery and death stem from it. Barstool life is lame at any age. There are million better ways to "meet people and get laid". "Getting it out of your system" is not bad in theory but in practice? STDs. STDs. STDs.
Who will do the arranging?
Would Western folks in Europe, North America and elsewhere accept help in the marriage department or are they too proud and obsessed with personal autonomy?
Mysteries abound…
Family - but crucially also (lovably) busybody friends
Do let me know when you have set up a social re-education campaign to get autonomy-loving Westerners to positively embrace the duties and social obligations of marriage.
Most folks today think marriage is a prize for high-status social winners. Marriage as a capstone is the norm even on the right 😐
"Do let me know when you have set up a social re-education campaign to get autonomy-loving Westerners to positively embrace the duties and social obligations of marriage."
--- The duties and social obligations of marriages that have been arranged are doubly, triply, unlimitedly even moreso cumbersome.
The sort of cultures that give rise to the type of families that arrange marriages is something you can't imagine. And when you do imagine it - it's a rose-colored fantasy seen through the eyes of a westerner who romanticizes and exoticizes "the orient".
Leave well enough alone and trust me - you do not want that culture.
“The duties and social obligations of marriages that have been arranged are doubly, triply, unlimitedly even moreso cumbersome.”
How so?
The arranged marriage cultures I am familiar with are multi-generational, patrilineal, patrilocal, "joint-family" cultures. That means sons never move out of their parents' home and the bride comes to live there in her in-laws home. So under one roof you can have up to 4 generations living. Paternal great-grandparents, paternal grand-parents, parents and kids. No privacy, no autonomy, no independent decision making on anything. Grown, working adults, whether married or single, turn over their salaries to the elders in the family and those elders decide how to disperse the incomes. If wives have issues with parents-in-law or brothers/sisters-in-law, the husband/son/brother gets caught in between and cannot take sides otherwise huge family war ensues so he has to cleverly play both sides or curl up in a ball under the covers and weep while ignoring everyone, which will also turn into huge family drama.
Arranged marriages are products of certain family structures (such as joint-families, NOT nuclear families), and certain cultures and societal structures. None of which are found in North America or Europe unless brought over by immigrants.
What cultural group are you referring to? It helps to be clearer about these things.
Feel free to share if you’d like to.
If you are still around I want to share with you a look into the family dynamics of the most arranged marriage country on Earth right now:
From an advice forum:
I (43 f) live with my husband (45m) in a joint family set up. We live with our kids A (16) and N(10). We also live with my BIL and his son (10) and my MIL. BIL’s wife passed away during child birth. Last week my MIL came up to me one morning and told me that she had woken up to get water when she walked by my bedroom and said she heard my husband and I having sex! She said that it was inappropriate for me to be engaging in these kind of things as a woman of my age and that I should focus on being a mother. I was mortified so I quickly agreed to not have sex. Two days later she came back to me and said that she heard us again so now she wants me to sleep in her room. She says that it is how it should be as she and my FIL also slept in separate rooms until his passing. I thought she was joking but she came back at night and asked me to come to her room. It was 1 am and she was starting to yell so I agreed to go despite my husband protesting.
The next morning I was in the kitchen when my husband came in. We were both annoyed when my BIL walked in. He asked why I was sleeping in his mother’s room as BIL had walked in that morning when he came to give her meds. I was a little hesitant but my husband told him we were engaging in marital relations (but tried telling it to him through subtle hints)My BIL was a bit confused and wanted clarification when my MIL walked in. My BIL asked her and she said that it was because we were being dirty. I was angry and told her it was normal when she started going off about how we were immature and she ended up calling me a whore (in our language). I was furious and before I could say anything my husband stepped in and started telling his mother to calm down. But this is when his brother stepped in and he agreed that a woman like me who is a mother should not be lusting over a sband lost it and went off and told him that he was just being crazy. BIL tried saying that his wife and him never did things like this and the only reason they ever did it was to have a child. He said that if she were alive they would also keep their distance. This is when my husband snapped and told him that he was the reason his wife died.
Now a little context is that my BILs wife was pregnant 4 times before having their son but at all those times BIL made her abort until she had the son. But due to this she was too weak and passed away. BIL was extremely hurt and left the room. My MIL said that it was all my fault and she told my husband that he was a shameless man and a bad father. My husband and I are thinking of moving out. We aren’t sure how to tell our kids this. My BILs wife’s parents called us as BIL moved there and they’re saying we are the AHs for being vulgar and it was not okay for us to be doing this. They think that we are the AHs for snapping at my BIL and accusing him of those things. They also say we’re the AHs for not listening to MIL. My parents and brother think that it is healthy for us and they are saying that MIL and BIL are the AHs for interfering in our marriage. So AITAH?
Edit: I am from India so it is very normal for us to live in joint families. My husband and I did think of moving out when my daughter was born but after my BILs wife passed my MIL wanted help with my nephew. I love him as my son so I was fine with living there. He gets along great with our kids as well.
Edit 2: I understand that it might be hard for people who are not understand and believe it but my fellow Indians will understand. For those of you saying we should suggest trying for a baby, that would not work as my MIL knows I hit menopause early so I can’t get pregnant any more.
Orthodox (~20% of) Jews use matchmakers “shadchans” for set ups. This however requires tight knit communities. Most of the time (from my knowledge as I have plenty of connections in the orthodox world but am not and did not grow up orthodox), people will find their spouse on their own but those who don’t by certain ages (depending on religious level and the community) will then go to a shadchan if they are not soon to be married.
Of course this requires close knit communities. Often times the shadchan will set one up with someone local-ish like brooklyn to rockland county ny where they didnt necessarily grow up with or next to said person (but not always).
Very interesting
Orthodox Jews take care of their own! 💪
Many elders are now obsessed with consumerism, vehemently atheist, and will only tell their 30 year olds that it is too early.
As someone deeply familiar with arranged marriages (don't ask), the culture, social structure and family dynamics required for such are impossible for Europe and North America. Westerners also tend to romanticise and exotify "the east" or foreign cultures so they have this tendency to idealize things like arranged marriage and view it through rose colored glasses.
I don’t think Westerners idealize arranged marriages. I bet most would think marriage should NEVER be arranged, which is why Westerners do little to practically set singles up.
I agree that most westerners do not idealize them. But there are some who do. And even some ones that don't still wonder how it is arranged marriages "last longer" than love marriages. They assume there is some special sauce in the mix that allows for deeper bonds or something. They know little to nothing about the cultures these marriages are arranged in so they take innocent, romanticized guesses.
What cultural group are you referring to?
Most marriages outside the West last longer in that they start earlier and divorce is rarer
South Asian countries (the Indian sub-continent, which includes several countries and the island nation of Sri Lanka). But the patrilocal joint family household is found in other regions of the world as well. But it is South Asia where it is found in an overwhelming abundance.
Divorce is low in countries where it is still a social taboo. The marriages could be loveless, unhappy, abusive, sadistic, murderous, you name it, but as long as they don't divorce, society smiles favorably upon them.
I know nothing about the intricacies of South Asian marriages but the diaspora folks look like they are thriving. South Asians groups have the highest marriage rates in the USA.
https://x.com/bradwilcoxifs/status/1875160407922631022
I’d take the South Asian bargain over the anarchic chaos of Western “dating”
Steps I have taken to build future fertility in my family and friend groups:
surround my children with higher density of large family friend groups and move when necessary.
Take vacations and surround my kids with other large families.
Talk about large families in complimentary way as aspirational
Pray out loud for my children each night to have large families
It all feeds into the idea of making generational family building a lifestyle and an end in itself
This is the way.
That way used to be common and still... here we are.
Do you ever have conservasations with people who grew up with lots of siblings?
Another thought my wife had recently was noticing that homeschool families in our circles had closer sibling relationships than public/private school families. In the right context this could build positive, nurturing familial ties
You are right that there are many examples of siblings in large families that did not enjoy their childhood (usually due to being neglected as youngest) and purposefully have fewer kids. I have seen both in my extended family.
Something I am trying to be thoughtful about cultivating is making my older siblings collaborators in raising our youngest who will be 8 years younger than oldest. The goal is to build leadership and agency in the olders and a closer relationship with the younger that doesn’t feel like a chore
Awesome.
Will work only for a few. After all, this used to be common and people who grew up with lots of siblings got sick of it and wanted their "space".
As someone deeply familiar with arranged marriage and the culture required for it - NO WE DON'T WANT IT!
Yuri says, "especially in the cities people are living very atomized lives". It's actually in the suburbs, rural and semi-rural areas of the USA where people are living the most atomized lives. Big cities have a lot of personal, face to face interaction going on. For community buidling, cities are the place to be.
Also, he's obviously never watched SATC (Sex and the City) if he thinks it never showed the downsides of the single life in NYC.